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Flushing and the autonomic nervous system

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TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Flushing and the autonomic nervous system

I've a pet theory (it may be a commonplace, I haven't looked into it enough yet) that my flushing may be the result of an autonomic nervous system imbalance (imbalance of the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems) - the autonomous, unconscious part of the nervous system associated e.g with the 'fright or flight' response; an imbalance which is in turn the consequence of a magnesium/calcium deficiency.

The following is old, and has probably been quoted before. Still:

Quote:

Brain, Vol. 110, No. 3, 793-803, 1987
© 1987 Guarantors of Brain

research-article
FACIAL FLUSHING AND SWEATING MEDIATED BY THE SYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM
PETER D. DRUMMOND and JAMES W. LANCE

Department of Neurology,Prince Henry Hospital Sydney, New South Wales, Australia

Correspondence to: Address for correspondence: Professor J. W. Lance, Department of Neurology, Prince Henry Hospital, Little Bay, 2036, NSW Australia.

Sweating and flushing of the forehead and cheeks in response to body heating, embarrassment and strong gustatory stimulation were investigated in 23 patients with a unilateral lesion in the sympathetic pathway to the face. A lesion anywhere along this pathway impaired thermoregulatory sweating and flushing on the denervated side of the forehead in most patients and also of the cheek in some cases. Emotional sweating was also diminished on the denervated side of the forehead irrespective of the site of lesion, but impairment of emotional vasodilatation was noted only with peripheral (second or third neuron) lesions. These findings suggest that sympathetic vasodilator fibres accompany vasoconstrictor and sudomotor fibres through conventional sympathetic pathways to the face. Gustatory sweating and flushing were symmetrical in most patients but flushing was more marked on the denervated side in three cases. Gustatory sweating was accompanied by flushing on the denervated side of the forehead in one patient following section of the T2 and T3 roots.

It is concluded that the cervical sympathetic outflow is the main pathway for thermoregulatory flushing and emotional blushing and that diminution or absence of such vasodilator reactions is a usual component of Homer's syndrome unless the responsible lesion is confined to the first thoracic root. Gustatory vasodilatation and sweating is preserved and becomes exaggerated in some instances.

Received March 4, 1986. Revised July 22, 1986. Accepted August 5, 1986.

My reasoning is pretty simplistic.

a) I don't think I flushed at the beginning of my rosacea; in fact I think it may be a fairly recent development.
b) In the four or so years of my having rosacea, I have been on antibiotics (minocycline) constantly.
c) These antibiotics compete with, and so lessen the availability of, amongst other minerals, magnesium and calcium.
d) Magnesium and calcium apparently play big roles in the autonomic nervous system (incidentally, I'm no scientist. The term "autonomic nervous system" might be a joke in the medical community for all I know, some relic of a bygone conceptual system, like "bile").
e) I have other symptoms, e.g. mouth ulcers and raynauds, which have been linked with magnesium and calcium deficiencies (also zinc, another mineral heavily interfered with by minocycline). (Raynauds, incidentally, has also been linked with an imbalance in the autonomic nervous system).

TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:39 am Post subject:

Looks like it is a commonplace...don't mock me and my innocence

Lookout

Joined: 28 Aug 2006

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject:

Am I reading this right....if one has a "lesion" it will cause less flushing?? Also, my experience with Cal/Mag is not good....it will cause flushing and burning for me...also Vit D.....I had to go down to a tiny supplement amount to try broken up into 3x per day....example....lets say it's 400mg cal, 200mg mag and the bottle requires you to take 3 caps to get this serving size...for me to tolerate it I must take one in the am, afternoon and pm...and that's it or I will have problems big time. This is sooooo fustrating to me....as I need cal/mag/vitd for bone health....I am going to have my doc run my levels to find out where I am at on these but since I have been living like a vampire for more than 10yrs I must be seriously defecient. _________________ Dx 1998 No meds Used low-dose accutane successfully

GJ

Joined: 12 Jun 2005

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject:

An imblance - perhaps, more specifically, an overly zealous sympathetic system - may certainly lead to an increase in certain types of flushing. Sympathectomy, not infrequently, leads to a diminution in blushing and sympathetically driven flushing episodes. Decapitation is similarly helpful. Ignorance does not allow me to comment on your theory, though we might reflect that the body's systems are often deranged, changed and improved by environmental and emotional pressures. The diagnosis of a skin condition might prove helpful; might be emotionally devastating. Frequent social unease and the constant stress attendant on managing the condition could, it might be imagined, push the sympathetic nervous system into overdrive..

Lookout

Joined: 28 Aug 2006

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject:

Decapitation is similarly helpful OMGoodness.... _________________ Dx 1998 No meds Used low-dose accutane successfully

Driven

Joined: 26 Jun 2007

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject:

When I'm "flushy" (i.e., I've been bad), I will tend to flush when startled. It's that small adrenaline kick that triggers it. However, when I'm not flushy, being startled does not trigger a flush. So for me, the fight or flight response triggers the symptoms, but is not the source of the problem.

TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:19 am Post subject:

Quote:

Am I reading this right....if one has a "lesion" it will cause less flushing??

In this instance, "lesion" refers to a cut or break in a pathway (specifically a block to the signalling of the nervous system) rather than a skin lesion like a spot.

Quote:

Also, my experience with Cal/Mag is not good....it will cause flushing and burning for me

Well, this makes sense, at least partially, since magnesium is employed in relaxing the sympathetic nervous system; one of the effects of which is dilation of the blood vessels.

Quote:

I had to go down to a tiny supplement amount to try broken up into 3x per day....example....lets say it's 400mg cal, 200mg mag and the bottle requires you to take 3 caps to get this serving size...for me to tolerate it I must take one in the am, afternoon and pm...and that's it or I will have problems big time. This is sooooo fustrating to me....as I need cal/mag/vitd for bone health.

One thing that's apparent is that no system is entirely independent, and so neither can mineral supplements be.
I wonder about your potassium and sodium levels. These elements are involved in the parasympathetic system, which dampens the action of the sympathetic system.

Quote:

Decapitation is similarly helpful.

But sympathectomy does seem to work, and the side effects don't look so massive.

Quote:

we might reflect that the body's systems are often deranged, changed and improved by environmental and emotional pressures

Stress, it seems, has an effect upon the autonomic nervous system. And indeed, this appears to be why stress can lead to depletion of various trace- and common metals/minerals.

This would seem to support the idea that a deficiency in these minerals affects the performance of this system. Perhaps the effects of stress get exacerbated when there is a deficiency.

Quote:

for me, the fight or flight response triggers the symptoms, but is not the source of the problem.

'Fight or flight' is only a paradigmatic instance of the activation of the autonomic nervous system. But its action is obviously wider than this. For example, it is involved in circadian rhythms (24 hour biological cycles).

So the startled-flush may be only an extreme case.

GJ

Joined: 12 Jun 2005

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject:

TheMediumDog wrote:

But sympathectomy does seem to work, and the side effects don't look so massive.

The side effects can be, and often are, devastating.

It dampens the flushing response to certain triggers. Countless other triggers are unaffected.

The red-faced citizen seeking relief will sometimes find his face redder after sympathectomy than before. ( A consequence of disturbed thermoregulation/ localised anhidrosis.)

This is, shall we say, unfortunate?

TheMediumDog
Forum Moderator

Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:29 am Post subject:

Quote:

The red-faced citizen seeking relief will sometimes find his face redder after sympathectomy than before. ( A consequence of disturbed thermoregulation/ localised anhidrosis.)

Fair enough.

Still, the point I really wanted to make was simply of the connection between flushing and the autonomic nervous system. I don't want to advocate sympathectomy.

TheMediumDog
Forum Moderator

Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject:

Well, I may have a trace mineral deficiency, but I have found that I cannot supplement without interfering with my antibiotics. Frankly, I don't feel its worth it to keep pursuing a theory.

But the connection between flushing and the ANS is independent of questions about trace minerals.

I was reading this, on a website about the menopause.

Quote:

The red face and overall hot flash is caused by a lowering of the set point of the heat regulating center in the brain, or more accurately, in the hypothalamus. This lowered set point fools the brain into thinking body temperature is too high and must be lowered. Blood flow is increased in the blood vessels in the skin causing redness, and a hot, burning sensation. This action allows body heat to escape and lowers body temperature. Estrogen stabilizes this heat regulating center; therefore, withdrawal from estrogen causes heat regulation instability.

My face gets hot/prone to flushing every day, around the same time. I can't think that I have an estrogen deficiency - it just seems a bit random. Although, given that I have very oily skin, which could be the result of the overproduction of DHT, then another hormone being out of balance wouldn't be too far fetched.

melissawohl
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Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Location: new york

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject:

I do think rosacea is caused by an out of whack autonomic system that may be caused by different triggers but results in the same effect. That being the hyper response of our nervous systems in certain situations.

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