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Tetracyclines, Dry skin, Calcium/Magnesium/Trace minerals
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TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Tetracyclines, Dry skin, Calcium/Magnesium/Trace minerals  
I have very dry skin on my face. If I rub it with the back of my sleeve shortly after a shower, a fair amount of dead skin will come off.

Almost universally, the recommendations for dry skin refer to moisturising. However, for me this does not work, since my skin produces loads of oil; hence moisturising brings me out in spots.

Another recommendation is to drink 8-10 glasses of water a day. This piece of beautician lore is utter rubbish; it is simply a promotion of the bottled-water industry; it has no effect.

I've toyed with the thought that I have seb-derm, and it may be so. However, my dry & oily skin is not at all localized; something in me suggests seb derm would have a different pattern.

With seb-derm, it seems that the oiliness is primary, insofar as it gives an environment for the yeast connected with seb-derm to live; which then leads to flakes.
But I think in my case the dryness may be primary; and the skin overproduces sebum to try to protect itself.

* * *

I've been taking tetracycline antibiotics for over 3 years now, which apparently deplete levels of Calcium, Magnesium, Iron and Zinc (at least, there's evidence for these; maybe they just haven't done the studies to show other depletions).

Deficiencies in one or other of these minerals correlate, to an extent, with some other symptoms I have, such as mouth ulcers and Raynauds.

Of course, they may have independent causes. But at the moment I'm trying to see them as all linked.

* * *

There's precious little information (at least on the web) linking dry skin with mineral deficiencies.

There's this, and also various websites such as this, both linked to the promotion the Dead Sea as a cosmetic haunt - but obviously, therefore the reliability is fairly shaky.

But I've also just found this, a highlight of which, from the present perspective, is:

Quote:
Ionic signals play important role in the homeostatic mechanism of the epidermal barrier function. Lee et al. (1992) J. Clin. Invest. 89:530-538. In normal skin, calcium is localized with high concentration in the epidermal granular layer, i.e., the uppermost layer of the epidermis, just below the stratum corneum. On the contrary, the concentration potassium is the highest in the spinous layer, i.e., middle of the epidermis, and the lowest in the granular layer.
Calcium is a universal messenger, even in simple organisms and plants. The combination of its ionic radius and double charge may allow it tighter binding to receptors to the exclusion of other ions such as magnesium, leading to strong, specific binding. Carafoli & Penniston (1985) The Calcium Signal. Sci. Am. 253:70-78. The specificity enables cells to form special receptors to assess signals from calcium. For many parts of the body, Ca2+ often acts as a second messenger in a manner similar to cAMP. In skin, calcium can provide signals for the cells, either extracellular or intracellular (in the cytosol). The extra- and intracellular signaling may be connected to each other, but may also act separately. It has been found that intracellular Ca2+ increases with raised extracellular Ca2+. This implies that increased intracellular Ca2+ is the actual signal to trigger keratinocytes differentiation. Tanojo & Maibach (1999) in Percutaneous Absorption, 3rd Ed., Bronaugh & Maibach, ed., Marcel Dekker, NY, pp. 939-950.
As Ca2+ cannot be metabolized like other second-messenger molecules, cells tightly regulate intracelular levels thorough numerous binding and specialized extrusion proteins. Clapham (1995) Cell 80:259-268. The concentration of calcium in extracellular spaces (generally ~1.5 mM) is four orders of magnitude higher than in the cytosol (~0.1 µM). In excitable cells, for example, muscle cells, the extracellular concentration of calcium must be closely regulated to keep it at its normal level of ~1.5 mM, so that it cannot accidentally trigger the muscle contraction, the transmission of nerve impulses, and blood clotting. In other cells, including keratinocytes, the extracellular level is maintained in a specific equilibrium with the intracellular concentrations.
As described above, there is a high calcium gradient between extra- and intracellular domains of keratinocytes, which requires tight regulation. Moreover, a calcium gradient is present within the epidermis, with higher quantities of Ca2+ in the upper than the lower epidermis. Menon et al. (1985) J. Invest. Dermatol. 102:789-795. Ca2+ concentration increases steadily from the basal region to stratum corneum, which this is not the case with other ions. Forslind et al (1995) Scanning Microsc. 9:1011-1026. Such a gradient is not observed in skin abnormalities related to the formation of abnormal barrier function, such as psoriasis. Menon & Elias (1991) Arch. Dermatol. 127:57-63. It has been reported that disruption of the skin barrier with acetone treatment or tape stripping depletes Ca2+ from the upper epidermis, resulting in the loss of the Ca2+ gradient. This is due to accelerated water transit that leads to the increased passive loss of Ca2+ into and through the stratum corneum. Mao-Qiang et al. (1997) Exp. Dermatol. 6:36-40.
In summary, calcium ions play an important role in the homeostasis of skin barrier. A change in the barrier will change the calcium ion gradient in skin and lead to barrier repair process. A severe change might lead to a high degree of calcium signaling, which may induce the activation of various processes, from increased synthesis of skin components or messengers to the inflammatory reactions. Thus, there exists a need for compositions and methods for activating the barrier repair process to restore normal barrier function to skin adversely affected by environmental elements or pathological conditions.


It seems possible, then, that low levels of calcium would impair barrier function, and inhibit its repair, leading to greater water transit/loss. And it would self-compounding.

Incidentally, before anyone goes on a calcium binge, the paper also says:

Quote:
...applying the calcium ions alone to the skin may not only be useless, but can also be harmful, because in monitoring the calcium, the skin also takes into account the presence of other ions. In the case of high calcium only application, the skin will take it as overdosing and trigger negative feedback in response which may cause unpredictable adverse effects.



Anyway... This paper is the description of the design of a topical. But I figure that remedying a deficiency may work to the same end.
TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:14 pm    Post subject:  
A bit more searching has turned up this:

Quote:
Atopic Dermatitis-like Symptoms in HR-1 Hairless Mice Fed a Diet Low in Magnesium and Zinc

Authors: Makiura, M.; Akamatsu, H.; Akita, H.; Yagami, A.; Shimizu, Y.; Eiro, H.; Kuramoto, M.; Suzuki, K.; Matsunaga, K.

Source: The Journal of International Medical Research, Volume 32, Number 4, July 2004 , pp. 392-399.

Publisher: Field House Publishing

Abstract:
We aimed to develop an animal model for atopic dermatitis. HR-1 hairless mice fed a diet with reduced magnesium and zinc levels were compared with mice fed a standard diet. Skin dryness and wrinkle-like changes, scratching behaviour, decreased skin water content, increased transepidermal water loss and raised blood immunoglobulin E levels were seen in the group receiving the reduced magnesium and zinc diet compared with control mice. There were no significant differences in body weight or the weight of the major organs between the two groups. Haematological examination in both groups was normal apart from increased immunoglobulin E levels in mice fed a reduced magnesium and zinc diet. These mice may be useful models of atopic dermatitis; preparation of the animals is not particularly time consuming, the reproducibility is 100%, and atopic dermatitis symptoms occur even in a specific pathogen-free environment.

Keywords: ATOPIC DERMATITIS; ANIMAL MODEL; MAGNESIUM; ZINC


I'm not a mouse, of course; but I'm pretty encouraged by finding this, it seems fairly straightforward.
TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:29 pm    Post subject:  
There is also this (url is too long to make a link; put some of the text into Google if you want to look; there's nothing more than is here (free, at least)).

Its one of those Dead Sea things. (Incidentally, they've 're-branded' the Dead Sea as the 'Sea of Life' to improve its image for the consumption of beauty products. Humans, you can do better!) It doesn't specify the number of volunteers. It could be, you know, a bunch of friends having a splash about. And obviously, the motivation (i.e. money) behind it is possibly rather smelly. However:

Quote:
Bathing in a magnesium-rich Dead Sea salt solution improves skin barrier function, enhances skin hydration, and reduces inflammation in atopic dry skin.

Pharmacology and therapeutics
International Journal of Dermatology. 44(2):151-157, February 2005.
Proksch, Ehrhardt MD, PhD; Nissen, Hans-Peter PhD; Bremgartner, Markus MD; Urquhart, Colin PhD

Abstract:
Magnesium salts, the prevalent minerals in Dead Sea water, are known to exhibit favorable effects in inflammatory diseases. We examined the efficacy of bathing atopic subjects in a salt rich in magnesium chloride from deep layers of the Dead Sea (Mavena(R) Dermaline Mg46 Dead Sea salt, Mavena AG, Belp, Switzerland).

Volunteers with atopic dry skin submerged one forearm for 15 min in a bath solution containing 5% Dead Sea salt. The second arm was submerged in tap water as control. Before the study and at weeks 1-6, transepidermal water loss (TEWL), skin hydration, skin roughness, and skin redness were determined.

We found one subgroup with a normal and one subgroup with an elevated TEWL before the study. Bathing in the Dead Sea salt solution significantly improved skin barrier function compared with the tap water-treated control forearm in the subgroup with elevated basal TEWL. Skin hydration was enhanced on the forearm treated with the Dead Sea salt in each group, which means the treatment moisturized the skin. Skin roughness and redness of the skin as a marker for inflammation were significantly reduced after bathing in the salt solution. This demonstrates that bathing in the salt solution was well tolerated, improved skin barrier function, enhanced stratum corneum hydration, and reduced skin roughness and inflammation.

We suggest that the favorable effects of bathing in the Dead Sea salt solution are most likely related to the high magnesium content. Magnesium salts are known to bind water, influence epidermal proliferation and differentiation, and enhance permeability barrier repair.

Copyright (C) 2005 Blackwell Publishing Ltd.
kristina b



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject:  
Hi themediumdog,

Can you get your GP to do a blood test for these minerals to check your levels? I've only just been diagnosed with rosacea but my GP decided off her own bat to test me for iron and magnesium levels as well as histamine levels (all results normal). She didn't explain her reasoning but I guess it's nice to know!

Kristina
TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:51 am    Post subject:  
Quote:
my GP decided off her own bat to test me for iron and magnesium levels as well as histamine levels


Interesting, really interesting - I would love to know the reasoning. I wish there wasn't this barrier between doctors and patients; but I guess its unavoidable.

I don't know about Iron, but I have read that the blood test for magnesium can be inaccurate. See this for example. (This wasn't where I read it originally, and I'm not sure the reason was the same. Anyway...).

Of course, I'm not a doctor, and relying on the internet is a fool's game, and all the rest of it.

Still, it feels worth knowing. I've had a couple of blood tests (though not specifically for magnesium, or any of the minerals mentioned) which have come back fine; so this sort of info gives me a bit of confidence that I'm not flogging a dead horse by investigating the possibility of a deficiency.

On the other hand, if I actually knew what was involved in the tests...
kristina b



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject:  
That's interesting reading! I had no idea just how important magnesium is in the body. Thanks.

Kristina
TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:23 pm    Post subject:  
Mmm. Careful though - I've found one can become a bit of a 'magnesium freak' through the internet. There are literally 000's of websites saying how important and under appreciated it is. Feels like a fad.

* * *

A bit more trawling has turned up a possible mechanism (I'm assuming there may be many others) for how a deficiency in some of these minerals might lead to dry skin (and then oily skin in addition, as a compensation).

Here goes.

It centres around a protein named 'hyaluronic acid'. It seems to be common knowledge that hyaluronic acid levels are heavily implicated in the water content levels of the skin. Basically, as its levels decrease, cells' ability to hold water decreases.

Googling "hyaluronic acid" and "water content" (or similar) brings up plenty of results, but this is as good as any (you can easily find non-commercial sources).

Anyway, there are a couple of places that link magnesium deficiency with hyaluronic acid abnormalities. (here for instance). Sample quote:

Quote:
Fibromyalgia, hypermobility and mitral valve prolapse are closely linked to each other, all may be linked to magnesium deficiency and all are features of many chronic disorders, and virtually all hereditary connective tissue disorders, especially Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. All three conditions are also features of Down syndrome, which has many overlaps with connective tissue disorders. All of these individual features and syndromes are linked to hyaluronic acid abnormalities, and hyaluronic acid is dependent upon Mg for its synthesis.

Magnesium deficiency, and perhaps other elements that affect hyaluronic acid levels, are a common thread to connective tissue disorders and disorders with overlapping features like Down syndrome. If these disorders all had an underlying biochemical deficiency such a magnesium deficit, then all of these interesting associations between mitral valve prolapse, fibromyalgia, hyaluronic acid, magnesium, Down syndrome and connective tissue disorders would have perfectly logical explanations.


If hyaluronic acid is dependent on magnesium for its synthesis; and tetracyclines deplete magnesium; and hyaluronic acid plays a big role in skin moisture content...then Jesus must have been born to a virgin...oh no, I mean...then there's some rationale behind connecting a magnesium deficiency with dry skin!

Here, zinc is added into the mix:

Quote:
What factors influence Hyaluronic Acid levels in the body?
Genes are likely to be a factor, but there are also nutritional and environmental factors that are known to have an impact, including zinc and magnesium availability.


I know that I'm relying on a magnesium-enthusiast and a supplement advert for my 'evidence', but still, its a theory.

Just to come at this from another angle, another 'ingredient' that has been seen as important in skin cells retaining their water levels is something called "glucosamine". For example, this skin programme for rehydrating the skin is partially based around glucosamine. And more widely, it is supplemented by people wanting to maintain healthy joints because it increases the fluid levels that allow the joints to function smoothly.

Well, in the skin, the body first converts glucosamine into another, different substance before it uses it to aid water retention. What substance? You've got it - hyaluronic acid! E.g:

Quote:
Glucosamine belongs to a category of nutrients called glycosaminoglycans or GAGs. While the term sounds imposing it refers to the structure of the molecule which is comprised of glucose (glycos) and an amino acid or protein (amino). GAGs are large molecules that attract and hold water. For this reason, GAGs are used in the body to provide cushioning (e.g., glucosamine is incorporated into the joints). From glucosamine, the body makes another GAG called hyaluronic acid or HA. Like glucosamine, hyaluronic acid attracts and holds water. HA is principally found in the dermis where it provides structural integrity and acts as a humectant or moisturizer.
kristina b



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject:  
Oh yes - I've heard a lot about people supplementing with glucosamine for joint problems and arthritis. And hyaluronic (is that the right spelling?)acid seems to be added to a lot of skincare products these days. But I didn't know about the magnesium link. I do take a multivit. and mineral with magnesium, but it says it's only 25% of the recommended amount. Can people take hyaluoronic acid as a supplement - I wonder if that helps with dry skin. My skin was becoming dryer throughout the Autumn, but I couldn't work out why; I think that's probably been a factor in my recent wind-induced flare-up, as it's been less able to bounce back from exposure to the elements. I'm not on antibiotics, but do have an underactive thyroid, which is of course another wonderful factor to add to all of this! - though recent blood test said levels were fine now. Oh God, it's all so confusing...

Kristina
kristina b



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject:  
Oh yes - I've heard a lot about people supplementing with glucosamine for joint problems and arthritis. And hyaluronic (is that the right spelling?)acid seems to be added to a lot of skincare products these days. But I didn't know about the magnesium link. I do take a multivit. and mineral with magnesium, but it says it's only 25% of the recommended amount. Can people take hyaluoronic acid as a supplement - I wonder if that helps with dry skin. My skin was becoming dryer throughout the Autumn, but I couldn't work out why; I think that's probably been a factor in my recent wind-induced flare-up, as it's been less able to bounce back from exposure to the elements. I'm not on antibiotics, but do have an underactive thyroid, which is of course another wonderful factor to add to all of this! - though recent blood test said levels were fine now. Oh God, it's all so confusing...

Kristina
kristina b



Joined: 30 Jan 2008
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:03 pm    Post subject:  
Sorry, don't know why I keep posting everything twice. I am an incompetent..

Kristina
TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:38 pm    Post subject:  
Apparently, the efficacy of hyaluronic acid supplements is unconfirmed. (See e.g. this which says e.g.:

Quote:
Hyaluronic acid oral supplements are promoted for arthritis and many other conditions including skin health. I have not come across any human trials with an oral form of hyaluronic acid to show whether this supplement helps with joint pain or inflammation. Many studies have been conducted with hyaluronic acid in the injectable form into knees and I have listed some of them below. Some of the studies with the injectable form of hyaluronic acid directly into the joint show it to be effective, while others have not shown much benefit. As of October 2007, I am not aware of any published studies regarding the oral use of hyaluronic acid.


I don't know exactly how these things work, but I'm guessing that the body produces this substance as part of a specific set of processes, and you can't just expect to put that substance in the stomach, and think the same process is going to occur.

By the way, I just want to say that I wouldn't recommend chasing up this magnesium/calcium/trace mineral - dry skin connection if you haven't got any specific reason to think you're deficient in these minerals. Or, let me put it another way - it wouldn't be my first port of call in remedying dry skin.

The only reason I'm pursuing it so doggedly is because I've been taking these tetracyclines for so long.
Lookout



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:01 pm    Post subject:  
Very interesting info!

I have a concern though....for some reason mag, cal supplements cause me to "flush" and a response of burining when I have tried to supplement them...I can only take a very small amount spaced out thru the day....most women should be taking 1200mg cal + 600mg mag 2:1 ratio....this is impossible for me at this time....I can't even handle half that amount.

Also I have tried several products with HA in them and darn it they dried out my skin more! Replinix (sp?) I think it was recommend here or the other forum.......this is what is soooooo confusing to me as the way you describe your skin in the OP is EXACTLY like mine...couldn't have said it better. I have to gently exfoliate my skin everyday to get the layer of dry dead cells off.

Ever hear of Ichthyosis? saw a program on this genetic skin disease....the skins normal pattern of sloughing is messed up....anyway, it is really bad...and most folks look like their skin is SUPER scaley dry....they treat it with accutane...they take it for life....they also you other "peeling type" lotions and soak and exfoliate the skin daily in a tub of bath water to then be able to put on moisturizer that would actually get to the skin and not just sit on the surface. I know this is much worse but it does have some similiarities in this process.

Sorry got off rambling there....I just don't know what to do.
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TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject:  
Quote:
I'm not on antibiotics, but do have an underactive thyroid, which is of course another wonderful factor to add to all of this!


That's interesting (sorry, I'm sure it is something other than interesting for you) because I've come to suspect some sort of connection with mild hypothyroidism in myself, while looking into this magnesium/calcium/trace mineral deficiency.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that people with hypothyroidism should look first to a deficiency in these minerals. However, I came across the fact that hypothyroidism, as well as being associated with raynauds (which I have) and with dry skin, can be implicated in mineral deficiencies. For example:

Quote:
Low levels of protein, omega-3, potassium, zinc, copper, lithium and magnesium can affect your thyroid gland function.


It got me thinking also about the flushing aspect of rosacea. I feel its very noticeable that my face seems to get hot/flushy at the same time every day. Well, it seems that your body temperature goes through a daily rhythm and one (though only one) of the systems involved in regulating it is the thyroid. (The idea would be that one gets more prone to flushing during the 'hot' phase).

There just seem to be these connections:

Raynauds - is thought to involve an extreme reaction to the cold. The body severely constricts the blood vessels when it meets with a cold environment, and then over-dilates them afterwards.

Rosacea-flushing - over-stimulated dilation of the blood vessels in response to triggers and general daily rhythms.

Thyroid dysfunction - poor control of general regulatory mechanisms.

(And, from my point of view, the significant point is that in the first and last cases - and with dry skin - mineral deficiencies are mentioned).

Its like the body has lost some kind of buffer, you know.
Steve95301



Joined: 23 Jul 2005
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:03 am    Post subject:  
TheMediumDog wrote:
Its like the body has lost some kind of buffer, you know.


I think the buffer is mitochondrial function. Almost all the conditions you describe, and many more within the rosacea spectrum, can be associated with mitochondrial dysfunction.
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TheMediumDog
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject:  
Quote:
Ever hear of Ichthyosis?


Yes, I think I've come across it while looking at all this. You know how it is - you see these really bad pictures and extreme symptoms, and say "nope, (and thank God) I don't have that". But if there is some deep dysfunction/deficiency involved, then it is going to manifest themselves in several ways, and you probably end up with bits and pieces of a few different recognized conditions.

For example, I notice that, in a page on Ichthyosis (it talks about HDD but I think they're two forms of the same thing) it says:

Quote:
Calcitriol, 1±25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, can induce differentiation of epidermal keratinocytes into squamous and denucleated horny cells by regulating inter- and intra-cellular calcium concentration. Cytoplasmic calcium homeostasis is known to be impaired in keratinocytes from Hailey-Hailey disease (HHD) and the normal epidermal calcium gradient is weakened in HHD patients. These observations and our previous published study on the effectiveness of systemic calcitriol in HHD, led us to a topical formulation of this compound in an HHD patient.Calcitriol, 1±25-dihydroxyvitamin D3, can induce differentiation of epidermal keratinocytes into squamous and denucleated horny cells by regulating inter- and intra-cellular calcium concentration. Cytoplasmic calcium homeostasis is known to be impaired in keratinocytes from Hailey-Hailey disease (HHD) and the normal epidermal calcium gradient is weakened in HHD patients. These observations and our previous published study on the effectiveness of systemic calcitriol in HHD, led us to a topical formulation of this compound in an HHD patient.


Calcium seems to act like a sort of messenger in the skin, so that if its out of balance, processes don't occur correctly.

But, but, but. Let me say again that I really wouldn't pursue any of this unless you've got a specific reason to suspect a deficiency. You say "for some reason mag, cal supplements cause me to "flush" and a response of burining when I have tried to supplement them" - well, if that were me, then I wouldn't be going anywhere near these supplements. More than likely, you get sufficient amounts of these in your daily diet - unless, as in my case, you're doing something which actively depletes your levels. Don't forget that the supplement industry has a stake in making you think you're deficient.

Are there any other things mentioned in the info about Ichthyosis that connect with symptoms you have?
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