Using varicose-vein herbs for rosacea
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: Using varicose-vein herbs for rosacea | |||
| (A bit of intro:) I've become pretty convinced recently that my rosacea is caused by
i) degraded vessel walls, ii) general degraded dermal+epidermal structure (collagen, elastin & hyaluronic acid/glucosaminoglycans) and also iii) general impaired circulation, possibly due to impaired oxygen transport through the bloodstream. I'll find out whether I'm right soon enough, since I've just started taking grape seed + ester c (and I'll add in Glisodin shortly; possibly also hyaluronic acid) and they target these problems. If they don't work, I'm back to square one. But anyway, I've noticed that the herbs included in formulations for varicose veins (and also chronic veinous insufficiency and various similar disorders) have actions that also target all these areas. I just wondered, then, what others thought; if they'd tried them, and so on. It is actually unsurprising, since it seems that varicose veins are partly caused by degraded vessel walls, as with rosacea. Similarly, the 'support structure' of the tissue around varicose veins is frequently degraded. And there are also often circulation issues, particularly the fact that due to problems in oxygen respiration, vessels over-dilate to carry more. (One might also make the connection with Raynauds - similar factors are in play, and similar herbs are used in treatment. The same with hemorrhoids). A typical varicose vein herb formula might contain the following: Bilberry; Butcher's Broom; Ginkgo Biloba; Gotu Kola; Horse Chestnut. There are others. Here are some of the properties of these herbs that I've been able to find: Bilberry. Their active constituents are called Anthocyanosides. Bilberry extract is currently used in visual diseases and thought to work by increasing oxygen and blood to the eye. In treating varicose veins it is thought to work by 1) stabilizing membrane phospholipids (which are just constituents of cell membranes), resulting in an increase in the endothelium barrier (that's the inner part of blood vessels), and 2) restoring venous surrounding tissue by increasing biosynthesis of the connective ground substance (see here). Note that the same source also says:
Similar inflammatory mechanisms are also postulated to occur in rosacea. Horse Chestnut. The active component here is called aescin. It is speculated that aescin works by inhibiting leukocyte activation - and it is leukocytes leaking through blood vessel walls that are supposed to be responsible for rosacea p&p's. Aescin also improves vessel walls’ tone by inhibiting enzymes that attack the vein interiors. It aids their elasticity (it facilitates the contraction of elastic fibres) by inhibiting elastase (which is the antagonist of elastin, which keeps your tissues elastic) and hyraluronidase (which is the antagonist of hyaluronic acid, which is your tissue's moisturizer). Both of these substances are part of the extravascular matrix and endothelium. (See e.g. this). Butcher's Broom. The active consituents are thought to be steroidal saponins, although Butcher's Broom seems to be less studied. Still, it is thought that these saponins attach to and strengthen certain parts of blood vessels, notably collagen. As a result, it tightens blood vessels and improves their flexibility and strength. (See here or here). Gotu Kola contains TTFCA (Tri-Terpenic Fraction of Centella Asiatica. To me this seems a bit of a joke name, but maybe its right) which stimulates the growth of connective tissues, such as collagen and elastin, which are needed for supporting and strengthening the walls of the veins. It also maintains the internal lining of the veins by promoting the growth of cells that line them. (Info from here). Finally there's Ginkgo Biloba. There are a few different relevant components. The gingkolide component apparently stops vessels constricting, and stops platelet coagulation – which helps bloodflow (from here). It is in this capacity that it can help Raynauds, and improve mental ability. It also contains antioxidant flavonoids, which help with the tone and elasticity of blood vessels (this, from here). On top of this, most of these herbs carry many antioxidants and flavanoids that strengthen tissue and inhibit antagonists implicated in rosacea. Now, a couple of points. First, that mention that Ginkgo stops vessels contracting might worry some, since we're basically talking about vasodilation; and runaway vasodilation is what rosacea flushes are. Well, I think the point here is that rosaceans obviously do still want their vessels to dilate (as part of the normal process of carrying blood around the body), they just don't want them to do so in an uncontrolled way. Substances that allow the body to control the dilation of vessels could actually be beneficial. Also, the purpose of these vasodilating properties in such formulations is to improve general circulation; and improved general circulation might help in rosacea, if one of its causes is unnaturally expanding vessels to carry sufficient oxygen, due to poor circulation (the matter is more complex than I am presenting; some of these herbs actually seem to help in oxygen respiration, for example). In short, its about normalizing rather than stopping a process. Having said this, the amount of vasodilating substances in some formulations really might be a problem. Some contain cayenne, for example, which is a consistent trigger. So care would need to be exercised. A second point - I have no idea at all if any of this works. Its pure speculation. I bought a bottle of capsules, and will try them out. But has anyone any experiences? |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2005
| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: | |
| Many of those things you mention are (theoretically) protective rather than restorative. You will have considerable difficulty discerning whether they are helping or not.
Butcher's Broom, Horse Chestnut, Rutin .... all have been tried by someone or other (me included) at various times and no spectacular successes have been recorded. I think Gingo Biloba might be more worthwhile but (as is the way with these things) more risky. I agree with the central point that a strong and healthy circulation is far from being the problem; one that is sluggish but that from time-to-time spectacularly overcompensates may be. More broadly - and please tell me to '**** off' if this grates - I would say that any improvement that might be gleaned from supplementation and the like might be more than undone by the perhaps destructive thinking patterns that sometimes attend their use: obsession, dependence, the desperate search for something new and more potent etc etc You will know this already, but still.. |
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: | |||
That is true. I have great difficulty with this. It is very hard not to need something to work (and all the behaviour that brings) when you desperately want it to. |
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Joined: 30 Jan 2008
| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: | |
| Hi the medium dog,
Let us know how you get on with these, won't you? Though I suppose it's difficult if you can't actually expect to see an improvement, just a protective effect. I took grapeseed extract for quite a while last year before I knew for sure I had rosacea (but I did know I had increasing numbers of visible/broken capillaries). Sadly it didn't stop further deterioration for me. I then tried pine bark extract, which I've heard other people have been helped by, but then I had my big flare-up last month while I was on it. Have you found a UK source for the glisodon? I was interested in that, but have only found one company - victoria health - who seem to sell it in the UK, and they're charging something like £25 for 30 capsules. I've come to exactly the same conclusions as you about the nature of my rosacea. I don't have p&ps (yet) but I seem to be witnessing the collapse of my facial capillary system! Sounds melodramatic, and I know they're not all visible to other people, but I can see them everywhere now, especially in natural light. Very unpleasant. Can I just ask if you had much success with IPL? I may be getting mixed up with someone else, but thought I remembered you writing about having your first sessions? Hope you don't mind my asking. Good luck with the supplements, Kristina |
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:22 am Post subject: | |||||||||||
Hopefully I'll see an improvement through increased protection - if p&p's are caused by leakage from capillaries, and these substances protect those walls. For me, my base redness is, so to speak, constantly renewed by p&p's.
Yes, I mean I don't think these things would work if the basic causes were still in place. And for me antibiotics are still going to be necessary for a while.
Do you mean you had a flare which you think was caused by the pine bark?
Yeah, I know. GJ, from this forum, pointed out this US seller to me. 60 tablets is around $17, i.e. £9. Now, you'd have to add shipping (??) & duty (around 13%??) & import VAT (17.5% if the order is over £18, otherwise nothing) on to that. I think that would come in at around £50 for 4 bottles, i.e. 240 tabs. And, at least in the notes, they say shipping is fairly quick. GJ was kind enough to send me his spare bottle of tabs, and if they work I think I will order from this seller.
Yeah, I've had 4 IPL's (5th coming up in a couple of weeks). They've helped a lot - I would say that antibiotics tamed the symptoms/the inflammatory cycle, IPL is reversing them. This is a good part of what makes me think that it would be good for me to use herbs that treat the vessel walls, build collagen etc, and are anti-inflammatory - because that is what these two treatments do, and they are the ones I've had success with. |
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Joined: 30 Jan 2008
| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: | |
| Thanks for that. I'm really glad the IPL's helping you. I'm very keen to start this, and have contacted Dr Crouch's clinic, though there are no appointments available at the moment. They're going to get back to me when there are.
No, I've no reason to think the pine bark extract caused my flare-up. Had been taking it for over a month then. For me it was just walking the children to school on a very, very windy day, after the Christmas holidays (when I guess I'd got used to being in a warm house). My skin went mad, and just didn't didn't calm down. Before I'd had redness and a few broken capillaries on my nose and cheeks. After this incident they just kept appearing in clusters all over the place, and most of my face is affected now. I'd only had mild flushes before, too, and now they're much worse. Even my forehead and chest seem to be involved now. I've also had terrible problems with sensitivity, pain and blistering - it got to a point where if one of my boys touched my face, I'd be in pain for about half an hour. Thankfully that has eased a bit, but more capillaries and blotches just keep on appearing - it seems to have an unstoppable momentum now. So I felt the pine bark extract couldn't have been doing a very good job in terms of protecting my vessels! I have to say I still don't fully understand what's happened, other than to think that this "trauma" has completely undermined my facial capillary structure. I think I'd had mild rosacea for years, but had no real signs that this was coming - other than increasingly dry skin all through the Autumn, which was unusual for me. I'm not on medication, having tried doxy and been taken off it because of side-effects. My GP has suggested clarithromycin, and I think I'll try that or azithromycin. Melissa gave me some useful info. about them, and it's interesting that apparently Dr Crouch prescribes clarithromycin post-IPL to inhibit angiogenesis. I don't know whether I'm going to stay a type I (actually, do have ocular involvement too), or whether p&ps will be the next step. Just haven't got a clue what my skin is going to do from day to day. Best wishes, Kristina |
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: | |
| Kristina - The scenario you describe is familiar. This condition really does seem to cascade once some kind of defence is breached (though the groundwork has probably been going on for a long time). The metaphor of a burst dam is pretty accurate I think. And this applies to treatment too - you have to put in some temporary protection (like antibiotics) to stop the flow of inflammation, and also get to rebuilding the defences.
That's a pain about the doxy, since it really does sound to me like you need a course of strong, proven medication. I suppose that you're not keen on trying topical antibiotics due to skin sensitivity? Yeah, Dr Crouch's clinic is always so overbooked - I rang there initially and there was a 2 month wait. It may be worth it though. I hear he gives excellent all-round care. I really feel as though I've done most of my diagnosis on my own through this forum, but it would have been far better to have had an expert giving me advice; I've gone down hundreds of blind alleys, and you really don't need it. |
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Joined: 30 Jan 2008
| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: | |
| I was prescribed metrogel at the same time as the doxy; but decided not to use it, after patch-testing on one of my few unaffected bits of facial skin(!) led to immediate burning and redness.
Yes, I agree that I need some medication. It's very depressing thinking I'm just sitting here watching this happen. I see the GP again on Thursday (she's sick of the sight of me), and will try the clarithromycin/azithromycin, I think. I have asked to be referred to a dermatologist, but she says she can't do that yet, until we see if antiobiotics have a good effect. She really doesn't know much about rosacea, which I do find very frustrating. Mind you, she's better than another GP I saw last year about the dry patches, who just told me to use steroid creams until they healed, and insisted I wasn't red enough for it to be rosacea ( I wasn't flushing at the time). Luckily for me I reacted to the steroid cream straight away too; so at least my sensitivity issues stopped me making it even worse with steroids!! Best wishes, Kristina |
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: | |||
Its certainly something when we're talking in these terms. I suppose GP's are only human. In my experience it doesn't get that much better at 'Dermatologist level'. I had one who talked to her boyfriend on her mobile during my consultation, barely listened, and both of the bits of advice she gave me were wrong. Have you ruled out oxytetracycline and minocycline - is that right? Suspecting that you'd have the same reaction to them as to doxy? |
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Joined: 30 Jan 2008
| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: | |
| Well, the GP seemed to think it would be a good idea to avoid all tetracyclines. I don't know, to be honest, if sensitivity to one means you're likely to be sensitive to all. I would rather have something that doesn't cause photosensitivity, as I can't tolerate sunscreens at the moment - even the non-chemical ones (with them, I think it's all the that rubbing in that sets me off!).
Kristina |
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Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Location: UK
| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: | |
| It appears that gingko increases nitric oxide (NO) levels. Given that NO dilates vessels, its increase would seem to be something that rosaceans don't want.
Of course, going from increased NO to increased flushing is too quick. It could be that in 'balancing' overall circulation, it actually improves facial flushing. ...Oh, but I've also found an article suggesting that it decreases NO. Maybe it just goes to show that non-biologists shouldn't exceed their knowledge. |
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