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derm, told me red led is bad

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mills

Joined: 12 Jul 2007

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: derm, told me red led is bad

derm toldme red led is bad for roscaea because it increases facial blood flow and grows new blood vessels. he says that is the opposite of what you want to do. you want to get rid of blood vessels.

Twickle Purple

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: BC

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject:

Absolutely avoid it at all costs then. _________________ The trick is to keep moving forward –– to let go of the fear and the regret that slows us down and keeps us from enjoying a journey that will be over all too soon.

mills

Joined: 12 Jul 2007

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject:

why do alot of rosacea patietns use red led if it grows new blood vesslels then. i thought it was good from the posts , that is why i asked for it for me

Twickle Purple

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: BC

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject:

There is no quick answer because we do not completely understand the biological processes involved in our tissue, rosacea, or red light therapy. It is not as simple as your derm has pronounced. There's a lot of misinformation based on incomplete information. It's going to be that way for a while yet... _________________ The trick is to keep moving forward –– to let go of the fear and the regret that slows us down and keeps us from enjoying a journey that will be over all too soon.

melissawohl
Forum Moderator

Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Location: new york

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject:

Hi Mills, Read through the LLLT section of the Forum and you will see that this type of therapy has indeed helped many members tremendously. There is no real scientific data on RLT regarding rosacea yet so this is mainly all we have to go by but everyone is different. So take your time and do the reading and you can decide for yourself. Doctors don't think outside the box always so unless they have the hard evidence they pooh pooh it. Good luck! Melissa

hozer2k

Joined: 05 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:27 am Post subject:

Your doctor is acting responsibly since there is some indication that LLLT can make rosacea worse. My recommendation is to consider this treatment only after some of the more proven effective treatments have been exhausted and you are still not satisfied with results. If you decide to give it a try, use at your own risk. Good results have been reported on this website, but you will have to realize that these are not necessarily scientific approaches. The big advantage you have is that there is a lot of information on this site.

melissawohl
Forum Moderator

Joined: 08 Jan 2007
Location: new york

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:38 am Post subject:

Yes, this Forum is a great place for info and support and as with all info here it is not to replace your own common sense or the guidance of a good doctor. It is a supplementation for us as there is very little known at this time about rosacea (and many other diseases) unfortunately. If there weren't people needing the Forum then it wouldn't survive. It fills a void and has been a lifesaver for me and many others. BTW Mills, did you ever find out that info about blue light you were asking about? Did you ask your doctor about that also? I'm interested to hear any info you might have on that subject. Best wishes, Melissa

Twickle Purple

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: BC

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: Re: derm, told me red led is bad

Okay, so far you've got 3 threads in the last month* asking if Red Light Therapy is bad. Now, this guy who's interview I quote below MAY have some credibility, but it's likely not the answer you appear to be looking for:

Twickle Purple wrote:

This is copied from the Yahoo! Rosacea Support site, which sourced this link:
http://www.dermatologytimes.com/dermatologytimes/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=361119

David Goldberg, M.D is:
* Director of Skin Laser & Surgery Specialists of New York and New Jersey
* Clinical professor of dermatology, and
* Director of laser research at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York

-----

Combining light-based treatments, topicals for rosacea
Aug 1, 2006
By: Louise Gagnon

National report — Light-based treatment, in combination with topical treatment, is effective in relieving the symptoms of rosacea such as acne, flushing and redness, one dermatologist says.

"Systemic or topical treatments are clearly efficacious in the treatment of acne that occurs within the setting of rosacea, but do little for the redness or flushing," says David Goldberg, M.D., director of Skin Laser & Surgery Specialists of New York and New Jersey and a clinical professor of dermatology and director of laser research at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York.

"Conversely, laser and laser light technology are highly effective in the treatment of rosacea-induced redness and flushing, but don't work well for the acne component of the condition. Nothing says you can't combine standard treatment — that is, topical — with light-based treatment," he says.

Patients who seek treatment from Dr. Goldberg generally have not found relief with medications exclusively, and are seeking alternatives for their symptoms, he says. Dr. Goldberg typically offers light sources, such as intense pulsed light (IPL) and light-emitting diode (LED) devices, to optimize outcome.

The advantage of a therapy like IPL is that it decreases erythema and decreases the number of vessels in the skin and, therefore, the flushing of the skin. The IPL is frequently combined with LED treatments of various colors that have unique properties.

Technology differences

"Each technology does something a little different," Dr. Goldberg says. "The yellow LED and IPL both lessen redness, so they work in synergy. We will often combine the yellow LED with red LED, the latter of which works well on the inflammation of the condition."

The LED devices do not cause pain and are not thermal, in contrast to laser technologies, according to Dr. Goldberg.

"There is no risk such as scarring when using LED devices," Dr. Goldberg says. "They can also work on any skin type, including ethnic skin. You have to be more careful in using laser and laser-like technologies because of their thermal effect."

Because lasers target melanin and there is greater melanin present in darker-skinned individuals, light absorption via the laser is inhibited, Dr. Goldberg explains. In contrast, the use of LED treatments for rosacea is an option for all patients.

If a treatment such as metronidazole formulation is applied, and inflammation arises, an LED device can treat the inflammation. In addition, the use of LED minimizes the amount of topical metronidazole that needs to be applied to the skin. "Some topical treatments are effective and very commonly used, but potentially very irritating," Dr. Goldberg says.

Antibiotics

If patients have severe rosacea, characterized by acne and inflammation, clinicians may prescribe antibiotics, such as minocycline administered orally; a topical agent; and light-based treatment.

"The symptoms vary, so the treatments vary," Dr. Goldberg says. "You might have the patient on antibiotics for a month or two, but the goal would be to get them off antibiotics. If the patient, for instance, were planning to get pregnant, being on antibiotics would be an issue. It would be preferable to use topical treatment and IPL/LED. They can have that treatment throughout pregnancy."

For middle-aged men who have rosacea and dilated blood vessels, typically on the sides of their nose, IPL is not effective to treat their larger blood vessels, so other light devices are necessary.

"In that instance, we would use a KTP (potassium-titanyl-phosphate) or Nd:YAG (neodymium:yttrium aluminum garnet) laser, allowing us to selectively target the dilated blood vessels and make them smaller," Dr. Goldberg says.

The most severe form of rosacea is rare, but features a bulbous nose, and is treated with a more aggressive laser, Dr. Goldberg notes. "They have what is referred to as a Jimmy Durante nose," Dr. Goldberg says. "It occurs in older men. That will not respond to any oral or topical medication. This problem has to be treated with an ablative laser such as an erbium or carbon dioxide (CO2) laser."

Patients should reduce the triggers that dilate blood vessels and cause skin flushing such as alcohol, spicy foods and sun exposure, Dr. Goldberg advises. "Cutting back on those triggers will lessen the symptoms," he says. "It's a matter of moderation."

---

* This thread, is omnilux red light bad? and is red light bad?
_________________
The trick is to keep moving forward –– to let go of the fear and the regret that slows us down and keeps us from enjoying a journey that will be over all too soon.

hozer2k

Joined: 05 Jan 2006

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:04 am Post subject:

In reference to the above, I have a couple of questions. 1. "Each technology does something a little different," Dr. Goldberg says. "The yellow LED and IPL both lessen redness, so they work in synergy. We will often combine the yellow LED with red LED, the latter of which works well on the inflammation of the condition." He states that yellow LED is actually effective to lessen redness. If so, why is there such little talk about yellow LED? Has anyone stated having success with yellow? 2. "Conversely, laser and laser light technology are highly effective in the treatment of rosacea-induced redness and flushing, but don't work well for the acne component of the condition. It is not clear to me what "laser" or "laser light technology" mean in this statement, can anyone help me out? IPL is intense pulsed light and is not a laser...so what is he referring to? I assume that LED is not part of that because I thought blue LED was found to be effective for acne. Note, this is not from a peer reviewed article but rather from a news magazine.

mills

Joined: 12 Jul 2007

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject:

on google i typed blue light anti-inflammatory and came up with it reducing il-1a and helping to reduce edema. red led does it grow new blood vessles? to me that is most important concern.

Twickle Purple

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: BC

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:57 pm Post subject:

mills wrote:

on google i typed blue light anti-inflammatory and came up with it reducing il-1a and helping to reduce edema.

red led does it grow new blood vessles? to me that is most important concern.

If you feel that growing new blood vessels (which are critical to skin health) is a bad thing, then avoid the red light.

I am loving all my healthy new blood vessels. Very Happy

The only result I seem to experience from having new blood vessels is better skin. Clearer, brighter, paler, cooler, smoother, less reactive skin.
_________________
The trick is to keep moving forward –– to let go of the fear and the regret that slows us down and keeps us from enjoying a journey that will be over all too soon.

mills

Joined: 12 Jul 2007

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject:

with roscaea you want to get rid of blood vessels not grow more of them

Twickle Purple

Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Location: BC

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject:

You want to get rid of defective vessels, you want to grow good ones. How does this not make sense?? You are obviously stuck on something so I will leave you to it. _________________ The trick is to keep moving forward –– to let go of the fear and the regret that slows us down and keeps us from enjoying a journey that will be over all too soon.

GJ

Joined: 12 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject:

hozer2k wrote:

In reference to the above, I have a couple of questions.

1. "Each technology does something a little different," Dr. Goldberg says. "The yellow LED and IPL both lessen redness, so they work in synergy. We will often combine the yellow LED with red LED, the latter of which works well on the inflammation of the condition."

He states that yellow LED is actually effective to lessen redness. If so, why is there such little talk about yellow LED? Has anyone stated having success with yellow?

2. "Conversely, laser and laser light technology are highly effective in the treatment of rosacea-induced redness and flushing, but don't work well for the acne component of the condition.

It is not clear to me what "laser" or "laser light technology" mean in this statement, can anyone help me out? IPL is intense pulsed light and is not a laser...so what is he referring to? I assume that LED is not part of that because I thought blue LED was found to be effective for acne.

Note, this is not from a peer reviewed article but rather from a news magazine.

1)I imagine Dr Goldberg's patients have been having success with yellow.

The pioneers (David, Peter, Kristen) hereabouts came (for whatever reason) upon the idea of using red. They reported their triumphs; others followed their lead.

If folk have strayed from this path they have tended to go higher up the spectrum: to near infra-red. I suspect most do this on the assumption that a light that penetrates deeper may produce even better results. (Many have found this to be the case.)

If we assume that red light (and infra-red) reduces inflammation, it will, by the nature of things, reduce redness. It is a touch odd to me that Dr Goldberg ascribes redness reducing properties solely to yellow light.

2) I would suggest that in the initial paragraph he is referring to IPL and true lasers (V-beam and whatnot). The article then subsequently broadens to encompass low level lights etc etc. This of course represents a certain laxity on the Dr's part as IPL is not laser. However, we will forgive him since he is addressing dim sorts who read magazines and not his peers.

mills

Joined: 12 Jul 2007

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject:

because we have too many vessels to begin with

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